God, nothingness, life, death...

[Shogon]

I've thought about this kind of stuff numerous times... as have probably most people. This post might ramble a little bit, so if you don't feel like reading it, then don't, and don't bother responding.

Oh, and please feel free to correct me on anything expressed here that is wrong. I'm no theologist nor is my knowledge on the bible extensive in the slightest, so try not to take offense.

At this point in my life, I have no idea what I believe. I would like to believe in God, but you can't force yourself to believe something, can you? That's why it's called believing. You either do, or you don't.

Obviously, there is no concrete undisputable proof of God, and it all boils down to faith.

I have a few questions, that nobody can really answer, but are interesting (at least to me) to think about.

If God is all knowing, why are we here? God knows whether or not you're(we as individuals) going to end up in hell or heaven before you're created, so what's really the point? Does that make any sense at all? This is one of, if not the biggest problems I have with believing. If you can think logically even the slightest, you will see that this makes no sense.

However, taking into the account that there is an actual possibility of God existing... an infallible, all powerful, all knowing being's reasoning and actions would obviously not be known to us unless it was deemed by God that we know and understand God's reasoning. And it would obviously be absurd for any of us to believe that we could rationalize and think on the same level of God and that we are anywhere even remotely close to being as intelligent.

That's the only possible halfassed explination I can think of for any of this existence. Well, that and the possibility that if God does exist, God is not all knowing, which contradicts everything we've heard and leads to no answer either.

Obviously these do not satisfy me in the least.

If believing is the only way to heaven, what happens to people that have never heard anything of God? This is something that could be perhaps be answered by any of you that have studied religion or grown up around it as what is told by religion, but myself, I have not, so I don't know. Again, you can't give a factual answer but you can tell me what the religions tell us to have faith in regarding this, however.

I must admit that the thought of there being no God is extremely frightening and can lead to anxiety (for me at least). Just dying and that's it? No more anything for you. Obviously this is something we can't control if it's true, and we're all headed to the same fate... but the thought is so scary(for me) that we'll(I'll) never be able to experience anything ever again or even exist ever again just is absolutely... mind consumingly frightening. Even though this world isn't perfect, I think it is better to exist than to not exist.

Anyhow...

And then there's the big bang theory and the theory of evolution. Ok, so there's a scientific theory as to how we all came to be and that everything was once nothing but for whatever reason something exploded OR started expanding for whatever reason... 13~ billion years ago. Out of nothingness, became existence? How could this be without an ultimate being that has always existed?

Now if you ask me, that makes no sense either. If everything were once nothingness, how could something just come to be? That does not make sense in the slightest. Nobody knows anything as far as that goes and this is all just theory as well. What does the big bang theory boil down to? Faith.

Is it possible that the big bang was a result of God? I don't see why not other than the whole "7 days" thing. Then again, if God is all powerful, why would it take 7 days? Why not just instantly have everything?

If you're still with me, I salute you. Hopefully I didn't confuse you too much, as I myself, am confused. What was the purpose of this? I don't know... just expressing what I'm thinking here at 2 and 3 in the morning.

My opinion is that if you get right down to it the really only logical explination is that there is God. But why am I not certain? I want to believe.

In summary, I would like to say that if not carried too far by people that are idiotic and extreme, regardless of its truth or not, certain religion is a good thing. Why? It's a good way to learn how to lead your life, if you care about being a good person at all and aren't capable of being one solely on your own.

Not only that, but again, regardless of its truth or not, truly believing can truly put your mind at ease if you're a good person and lead a good & moral life. You don't have to be scared of death like I am, and if you die... you're going to heaven if it's true. If not, you don't exist and you weren't scared in your final days, so no big deal. Sometimes I think it would be better to have been retarded. They're almost always happy. No worries for them. And I say that will all seriousness.

[dak]

If you feel you must worship something direct your efforts to the fundamental interactions subatomic particles abide by. They are the definitive laws of nature. These forces drive all the energies of the universe and define the very fabric of existence as you know it.

You do not need to understand them to pay homage, just like you do not need to "understand" god to worship. Unlike god though, there is proof.

You may ask what had the foresight to make these all encompassing rules so that chaotic energy could be ushered into seemingly higher order? The fact of the matter is origin of law is inconsequential, regardless of how the laws of particle interaction were layed out, creation in some form would ensue. This is the very nature of law, any forced direction will lead to order.

As for where the energy which forms these particles came from, a higher power is not needed to explain. Although in the beginning the universe was a empty void it still had properties and status which required definition. This was information and information is itself "energy" thus in defining itself it was forced create. This appearance of new energy created a need for more definition requiring more information and thus more energy. This energy which was being produced with great fervor was forced to interact according to its properties and through these interactions particles were formed.

Any change in a system results in manipulation of informational energy. This fact attributes to gravity, limitations on the speed of light, entropy and a slue of other concepts limited by current standards in scientific "knowledge".

[Phoenix]

God is used to explain things we do not yet comprehend.

Death is a perfect example.

That and religon is just another tool for others to control you. The Middle East is a perfect example of people being used as tools in the name of religon.

[Shogon]

Originally posted by dak
You may ask what had the foresight to make these all encompassing rules so that chaotic energy could be ushered into seemingly higher order? The fact of the matter is origin of law is inconsequential, regardless of how the laws of particle interaction were layed out, creation in some form would ensue. This is the very nature of law, any forced direction will lead to order.

As for where the energy which forms these particles came from, a higher power is not needed to explain. Although in the beginning the universe was a empty void it still had properties and status which required definition. This was information and information is itself "energy" thus in defining itself it was forced create. This appearance of new energy created a need for more definition requiring more information and thus more energy. This energy which was being produced with great fervor was forced to interact according to its properties and through these interactions particles were formed.

I appreciate your post, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. In your opinion, our universe's existence became about simply because it had to? If time is infinite, what was happening prior to the "big bang"? Nothingness for billions of years and then suddenly something out of no where just simply because? Or did existence for everything coincide with the big bang? Again, I still don't understand how it would just simply come to be. I realize you say I don't have to understand... but that's really no different than believing in God, as you apparently understand.

But if what you say is true, and everything exists just simply because... I take no comfort in this, at all. Some people can deal with it and be ok with it, but I'm not one. Anyways, thanks again.

Originally posted by Phoenix
God is used to explain things we do not yet comprehend.

Death is a perfect example.

That and religon is just another tool for others to control you. The Middle East is a perfect example of people being used as tools in the name of religon.

Let's not get into which religions are false and which one is correct because that'll just lead to bashing people & hurt feelings.

Anyhow... I agree. There's no doubt that certain religions if not all of them were created simply for control.

[Ham n Cheese]

Even with God used as the theory for creating the universe or big bang or whatever... where did God come from? Did one day God just appeared, and was it just an empty void of black space... and isn't that still something. And I don't understand the scientific side of explaining existance either, didn't particles have to start somewhere or sometime. Going back back back to know how it all began to choose which to believe just seems impossible for anyone to do imo. Though I don't know that much information of either side.

I'm an agnostic and I don't really try to think of this type of stuff much, because like Shogon said it's kind of scary to not know answers to this shit... or something that would seem more simple ... our purpose here.

[Samus Aran]

Well... in the grand scheme of things, nothing had to actually be CREATED. What I mean is, if you buy into the Big Bang/Crunch theory, everything will fall back on itself, including time. This means that when time begins again, all the matter will be there already, and will always be there for all eternity (here, I mean always, not necessarily in regards to time).



And on to other topics:
I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this in the thread yet, but here is something to ponder if you don't believe that life came from the cosmos and started by chance (well, this is primarily aimed at those who point out the infinitely small chance it had of doing so): if a man has, say, a .0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance of winning the lottery 5 times in a row, and does, would you say that he didn't due to his small chance of winning it?

And yes, I know that that paragraph had nothing to do with anything said in the thread, but just figured I'd throw it out.

[Kan]

humans have a finite mind using 10ish % of their brain we are physically/mentally unable to comprehend things of this nature we can have ideas or theorys but beyond that it is impossible to know for us.

God having a infinite mind is able to comprehend (and make) the paths set for each person etc. There really is no proof to either side both rely on faith or trusting some other guy but to say Religion is a tool to control people isnt entirely correct , yes alot of religions have done that (middle east as you said is a great example of that) but to say all religions do that no i dont agree there.

Big bang theory just seems like a half assed attempt to explain something by someone who wants to be the "smart" guy for big bang to have happened something had to exist prior to that and if big bang means the creation of things how did it even happen with nothing to begin with?

basically like i said before no one can understand really any of the reasons etc for many things of this nature cause of lack of using 90is% of our brain and being a finite mind we are just not equipped to understand it.

oh and the god 7 days thing, a day to god (says in the bible) is not a 24hour day its like a insane amount of time which equates to evolution even though it is science it does fit into the god existence mold, if gods days are millions of years say then evolution ofcourse happened , create the heavens earth animals and so on (animals being dinosaurs, the first creatures?) then over time evolution happens man is made and so on. So science and religion can coexist to form a "rational" theory using ideals from both sides.

ok done rambling back to WoW

[Samus Aran]

Originally posted by Kan
Big bang theory just seems like a half assed attempt to explain something by someone who wants to be the "smart" guy for big bang to have happened something had to exist prior to that and if big bang means the creation of things how did it even happen with nothing to begin with?

That's the thing... people like to think of a "beginning" and an "end". But there doesn't necessarily have to be either.

Just throwing something else out there: Stephen Hawking believes in a "supreme mover" (not sure if that's the right term he uses)... basically a supernatural figure that made everything and then started it off (Big Bang). <--- I think that's what he says, but don't quote me on that.

[Kan]

that seems like a decent theory it does follow along scientific evidence along with religious belief of god creating everything.

[Jeru]

God and the big bang theory are just both feeble attempts at trying to understand something that probably isnt meant to be understood. I definently lean more towards the big bang theory cause I have more faith in science and evolution than a man in the sky creating everything, damn facts...... Each could happen depending on what you believe but the problem is that they both had to begin somewhere. And arguing that god just appeared and that nothingness turned into the big bang is pretty much masturbation, not getting very far with either.

I truly enjoy the fact that I dont know how I got here or anything or anyone for that matter. I think that makes our journey even more exciting. To me we are not suppose to understand our origins because I think if we did it would reveal to much which would negate our ability to choose anything. I think that religion demonstrates this fact, influence of a book to old to be argued is still a catalyst for mass murders to simple living choices made everyday.

Closing your mind to anything is always a bad idea!

[dak]

I appreciate your post, but I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. In your opinion, our universe's existence became about simply because it had to? If time is infinite, what was happening prior to the "big bang"? Nothingness for billions of years and then suddenly something out of no where just simply because? Or did existence for everything coincide with the big bang? Again, I still don't understand how it would just simply come to be. I realize you say I don't have to understand... but that's really no different than believing in God, as you apparently understand.

But if what you say is true, and everything exists just simply because... I take no comfort in this, at all. Some people can deal with it and be ok with it, but I'm not one. Anyways, thanks again.

The human mind is wired to not accept that energy can just "appear from nothing". This is reasonable since at this time it cannot. You need to "think outside the box" though. Sure, prior to creation nothing existed to create energy from, but also realize nothing existed to prevent it from being created. This is a bit of an oversimplification but if there are no rules on what can and cannot happen the chance that "nothing" will happen is just one in an infinite number of possibilities. It was inevitable something would eventually be created, when this happens laws would be be formed though since there was now something which could be interacted with. It just so happens that informational energy defining the universe itself was this first "something" and it "stacked well" with itself.

The creation of this energy was not totally by chance though, it came from the only law predating creation, the need for definition. The first law of thermodynamics demands a closed system to be applicable, the pre-creation universe lacked definition and therefore was not a closed system at all. With no boundries the universe was for all practical purposes endless. What is the total energy of an infinite system? Definition was demanded. The universe in fact limited how much energy can exist but in doing so created the first energy by this action.

As for the Big Bang being the source of creation. It created the universe as we know it but not energy. Inside the singularity of the pre-expanded Big Bang the energy which would create the subatomic particles we are familiar with resided. Prior to the creation of the singularity there was just that increasing amount of defining, informational energy. It makes sense that the less scattered the energy defined by informational energy was the more efficent it could be defined. Due to this all the rapidly created informational energy eventually coalesced, creating a singular entity which could be defined with existing energy without creation of more. The physical extremes created by the interaction of this much energy created the Big Bang. The energy which had the sole purpose of collectively defining itself became the particles you know today.

To conclude, the universe does no exist simply because it can. It exists because of the necessity of limits.

[Kan]

to place a set of laws and reactions on nothing is not possible though. Nothing is literally that , nothing, there wasnt a atom a electron or set of laws there was simply nothing, which is impossible to even comprehend.

to comment on a statement earlier about why would god create us if he knew some would go to hell etc. well one possibility to that is that god knows the possible paths we could lead and the choice of which we do is up to us some leads us to heaven some to hell.

[majeo]

Why mention a "before" or "reason?" A better than high school understanding of physics knows that time is not a constant and could easily not begin until the big bang (thus nothing “before it”), and “reason” in itself is simply a human invention. When you let go of the apple, it does not fall because of a reason.

The math describes the laws, not vice versa.

[Severak]

Shogon, concerning your problems with pre-destination and such if there is in fact a God, there is a somewhat legitimate explanation.



Let's say that there *is* in fact a pre-detemined path for every human being. This idea is generally disliked by people due to the fact that they think it eliminates the aspect of choice. However, in this pre-determined path, choice is included. In the path, there are certain forks which are included, and you can choose which path you take. Regardless of if the outcome of your choice is predetermined, you don't know your predetermined path, hence free will is still included in pre-destination.


Now, concerning your other questions....

To be honest, if you really want answers, the FOH board is not the right place. Reading the works of philosophers such as Nietzsche, Aristotle, as well as theologians such as Martin Luther would be a good start to finding an answer suitable to appease your questioning for the time being. However in the end you're really not going to find a suitable answe to your question, simply because the idea of God (whether or not he exists), and religion, is to provide answers to the very questions that you ask.



The big-bang theory is probably the closest theory to being correct, seeing as there is scientific proof that A) the universe started very small and B) it is perpetually growing (we know this doing to the "light skeleton," or the grid of light waves/paths that we can see), and that in accordance with modern day science it falls into place.


However, for all intents and purposes, the big bang theory can be completely incorrect. The questions you ask are ones that were first asked essentially the moment humans evolved into beings capable of rational thought.


Well fuck, I'm rambling, so I guess what I'm trying to say is:

-Predestination does not eliminate the prospect of human choice

-Read the intelligent philosophers and theologians to help find a suitable explanation

-You're still not going to find a completely suitable explanation.

[Shogon]

-Predestination does not eliminate the prospect of human choice

Well, I know. They can coincide. I don't think I said they can't. I fully understand that.

You're still not going to find a completely suitable explanation.

This is something I understand. I was mostly thinking out loud and felt like sharing my thoughts even though they're not original... they are mine, and not placed there by others.