God, nothingness, life, death...

[Kilivek]

Children,

While it is typical to wonder, to ask why, it's foolish. No one here has any answers, no one can explain why we do what we do. So please, just draw stupidass paint pictures or something. Brainless time wasting is the way of bliss. God, life, and death will be explained in the afterlife or never explained.

[Idyaar]

I wanted to add something here. Religion is a "lifestyle" But, most prodistant(sp) religions have the same "belief" in christianity. I am a Christian. However, I do not subscribe to the idea that I have to be a certain religion to be a believer. Scientists will tell you to no end that the Big Bang is where it all happened. I don't believe that. I believe in a God. However, someone in a earlier post say "a man in the sky" See, that's where I think religion limits you. It makes you think things that may or may not be true. I do not believe in a literal "Hell" I think Hell is something that is bad for you. I also believe heaven will be the same.

I have no idea about other religions. I am not saying they are right or wrong. That is why you have to have Faith in what you believe.

[Eomer]

As far as Science, eh this to isn't a 100% law and those that believe that the Big Bang theory, or whatever theory that is out there, is how it works are just as bad as people that follow a religion. You are following this belief, dogma, blindly just as a Christian or a Muslim or a Jew. There are no facts or hard evidence that proves this to be true.

I love it when people say stuff like this. No, there isn't any single hard piece of evidence that says "the big bang had to have happened." Something like that doesn't exist in theoretical physics. There is however TONS of evidence and "facts" out there that point the direction in the big bang. Scientists didn't create the big bang theory, then go looking for evidence of it. They saw a shitload of evidence in a whole slew of different areas, and they all pointed towards the same thing, and eventually someone came up with a big bang. And as with most theories, at first it was ridiculed amongst the scientific community, until now it's more or less accepted, if not understood. The general public is a few steps behind, though.

There's just so many things in our Universe that are so neatly explained by a big bang that it's pretty tough to just rule it out completely by saying "there's no evidence." There's a shitload of it.

[Brettation]

Knowing a littlebit about physics... here is a fun little fact.

If the big bang DID happen, and explosion of that magnitude whould throw all particles spinning in ONE direction.... now..

Why do some galaxies spin one direction and some the other?

The bible tells us that the created can not ever understand the creator. So don't bother yourself over it. Its you choice to believe in god. I choose to

[Jimmee]

Originally posted by Brettation
Knowing a littlebit about physics... here is a fun little fact.

If the big bang DID happen, and explosion of that magnitude whould throw all particles spinning in ONE direction.... now..

Why do some galaxies spin one direction and some the other?

The bible tells us that the created can not ever understand the creator. So don't bother yourself over it. Its you choice to believe in god. I choose to

Wouldn't an explosion just throw surrounding matter out in an outward direction without giving them any particular spinning characterisitics (sp?) For any particular spin to be given to it the explosion would have to be off centre, and assuming the big bang was the centre of creation then it couldn't really be off centre.

And my main dislike of religion is the idea that we can't comprehend it so we shouldn't challenge what's said, it just reads like a cult manual. I have no problem with people believing in religion, but it completely ruins some peoples brains.

I remember a friend who claimed that any evidence which pointed out potential flaws in the bible was just a test from God, and that by falling for them we would be going to hell. He was in one of those branches that believes that the 7 days of creation were literal and that the earth was only 5000 years old (or whatever the figure is, something like that,) when asked about the dinosaurs and how they fitted into that view he said they were just a test from God, and that if you believed in them and the theories behind them you were a filthy heathen.

He was completely wrapped up in it and could not (would not) comprehend or begin to accept or even entertain the thought of anything outside of his beliefs.

I still think that "God of the gaps" people are the worst though, those who will attribute the unknown to a higher power until the science behind it is discovered, then they'll start attributing somehting else to a higher power until that is worked out. The idea being that God fills the gaps of knowledge and as we advance what we know there will be less and less for these people to attribute to God.

The fact is that most evidence points towards an expanding universe (e.g. the red shift,) which suggests that something happened which caused it to move outwards from a central point. How this happened is unknown (as has been said) but occam's razor would suggest an explosion.

[Eomer]

Knowing a littlebit about physics... here is a fun little fact.

If the big bang DID happen, and explosion of that magnitude whould throw all particles spinning in ONE direction.... now..

Why do some galaxies spin one direction and some the other?

Asking elementary hypothetical questions using Newtonian (ie: wrong on astronomical scales) physics in regards to the Big Bang and the formation of our Universe and the galaxies therein is just dumb. Don't do it kids. Unless you have a doctorate in math and/or physics, I wouldn't bother trying to disprove the big bang. It may not be understood, but it almost certainly did happen. Millions upon millions of scientists are in agreement on that, they start to get argumentative about the how's, why's, when's, and other details. But it's pretty much accepted that it happened.

[Dexz]

Im going to cut through the chase, the only post I actually looked over was the original and the following post by dak.

Religion is a tool used to add stabilty and order to the human race. Without some sort of formal religion, what would define our morals ? Regardless of what religion you look at in our world most of them have very similiar teachings, morals and rewards.

The point that was made about religion being used as a Control Tool is somewhat correct in my view. Although, some reach out into the far extremes. All of them rely on your faith and devotion to a higher power.

[Xandax]

Well Eomer I'm sure you know more about the Big Bang topic than I do, but what I said was there is nothing that is exactly saying the Big Bang happened, but yes I know there are millions of facts and evidence pointing to the Big Bang. Between the two, if I was to pick, I would definately think the Big Bang theory to be more plausible.

[Dexz]

I think the title of Big Bang Theory, states it all......

The mechanics of the universe are so complex that we can't even manage a manned trip to mars, but yet we try to prove the origin of it all. Please tell me in what scientific protocol does it say to go from step A to step Z. One step at a time

[Belefuu]

Just a few notes on these topics...

The Big Bang theory does/can not attempt to explain the actual beginning of existence. The Big Bang theory merely explains the beginning of this existence we find ourselves in right now. The Big Bang is not something from nothing, it is merely a whole lot of something changing form. The only thing we can determine is that immediately before the Big Bang, all of the matter in what is now the known universe was contained in a single infinitesimal point, a singularity, and that it "blew up", and our universe resulted.

Now here is where it gets really interesting. According to Hawking and others, in such a singularity, the laws of physics would break down, would cease to exist. This means everything, gravity, energy... even time. Hell, even the AMOUNT of matter contained in the singularity would not necesarily be the same. So basically, all the physical laws of the universe were molded and formed during and immediately after said Big Bang. This gives rise to many interesting ideas, such as a universe that begins, expands, contracts, and ends in a singularity, and then begins anew, with a whole new set of rules.

However, my main point about the Big Bang is that it at least puts a limit on what we should even feasibly consider. As crazy as it is to attempt to understand this universe with it's myriad of laws, it's just utterly, futily impossible to go past that where those laws don't even exist. So as far as we will ever understand, that is the beginning of time, and "existence".

Anything beyond this begins to fall into what I call the creation paradox. For example: ok, we'll assume that (to be as general as possible) some greater force caused this Big Bang. Well, what created this greater force? What does its universe consist of? What are its laws? Understand that? Ok, well, what created that? Etc, etc, etc. Following this line of logic, one can only end up with the fact that at some point something spontaneously bloomed from nothing. I suppose there is also the idea of continuous, or looping time, but to me even that comes down to "well, what put this loop in motion?" And you're back at something from nothing.

So for me personally, as far as I can go is to say I think there was probably some greater force that put the Big Bang in motion. The further you go from that, the more you try to pin it down and figure it out, is really just throwing darts at an infinite number of possibilities. I'll say that I hope for an afterlife, and for things such as some force aiming things towards the greater good. But they're really just hopes, and I kind of wish people would use that word instead of "beliefs", because beliefs cause way too many problems.

[Eomer]

Well Eomer I'm sure you know more about the Big Bang topic than I do, but what I said was there is nothing that is exactly saying the Big Bang happened, but yes I know there are millions of facts and evidence pointing to the Big Bang. Between the two, if I was to pick, I would definately think the Big Bang theory to be more plausible.

Shrug, there's as much and more evidence pointing to the big bang or something similar to it as there is evidence of many other things that we accept as complete fact. Same thing with stuff like black holes, or dark energy, or dark matter. We may not be able to directly see or touch them, but we're pretty damn sure they're there anyway.

[Kolle]

Religion is a problem in this world. Whatever good intention you might find in parts of it, the end result is war and misery. It's good that we can agree on a few basic rules. It's not right to just kill people or steal their stuff. It's unfortunate governments can't follow those simple rules, but there you have it.


Why you should doubt religion and christianity:

1. You aren't born knowing god.

You are taught. Humans may have something in them that looks to a higher power for certain things, but that's not what I'm talking about. If you are born and isolated from people, you will grow up not knowing who the hell Jesus or Buddha is. You would be absolutely clueless. You couldn't quote scripture. You couldn't tell the stories or recite the lessons of the bible. A person has to be told these things or read them for themselves.

I put forth that this is an excellent reason why religion and gods are bullshit. There may exist superior beings, but not supreme ones.

If the multi-verse had a one true creator, an architect and designer of it all then you wouldn't have to be told. You could grow up and live on a deserted island and still know his/her name. You would know what it expected of you and why. You would not have to be taught by other humans.

We all know this isn't the case. You might find some kind of spiritual connection with the Earth or Universe on your own, but not all the specifics that each religion has.



2. The bible isn't truth.

This is something a lot of christians don't know. It's something that's not taught or talked about to congregations. The bible didn't magically float together and come into being. Some mysterious guy didn't sit down and just write all the words down while god whispered in his ear.

For example, the first 5 books of the bible were (at least mostly) written by Moses. This is creation, genesis, Adam & Eve, the flood, etc... Now obviously he didn't live through all those things. Moses came long after those events happened. How did he know about them? God told him? Divine sight? No. Stories. Moses knew about them because of Stories.

This is a time before computers and books as we know them today. A lot of history was passed down by word of mouth. From generation to generation, stories were told and this is how Moses thought he knew what happened in the past. Each and every one of you knows what goes along with a situation like this. The end result is not what originally happened.

The way I always explain this is the game that most of us has probably played at some point in your lives. You have a bunch of people in a circle or whatever in a room. One person starts with a message and whispers it to the person next to them. By the time it goes around the room and back to the original person, the message is completely distorted. This can be because someone repeated it wrong on accident or changed it on purpose.

This is what we're faced with in parts of the bible scripture. There's no telling how those original things actually played out because by the time Moses heard them and wrote them down, they were most likely changed and distorted for countless reasons.



3. The bible isn't authentic.

This is also something a lot of christians aren't taught. And for a good reason, too. Because if most of them were more and more might start to wake up to the fact that things are fishy.

It wasn't until many years after the death of Jesus that the bible was put together. Religious leaders at the time, essentially politicians with power over people, sat down and decided what would go in the bible and what wouldn't. They decided what to change and what not to change to suit their goals.

If something threatened their power, like reincarnation, it was removed. The reason reincarnation threatens their power, even today, is because then you no longer have one of the greatest tools to control people with: Fear of Hell.

Just consider all the things you don't know about Jesus. His teenage years and 20s are completely absent. Whatever he did or said during those times were without a doubt something radical that threatens the grip these religious leaders had over people. Things that they don't want you knowing. I actually wouldn't be surprised if places like the Vatican have information on this and keep it locked away because they know what it would cause.

So you see, there's no telling what was actually said or written. You can't even be 100% sure what you do read is accurate. It may not even be what Jesus actually taught.

Same goes with other parts of the bible. Whoever writes the history can do so as they wish. If they want the story to favor their side, then so be it. Just take a look at what children are taught in school about history. It's hardly accurate in parts. When I was in school, we were taught that Christopher Columbus was this great human being. Well, we all know better. He was a disgusting person that doesn't deserve a damn bit of respect, much less any holiday.



4. Too many people didn't know.

Ok. Let's suppose you believe in christianity. This means you believe that a person must accept Jesus into his heart and repent of his sins in order to reach Heaven. Otherwise you're going to Hell.

This is where we see a major, major problem. Just think of 2,000 years ago. No TV, no radio, no telegraphs... How did word of christianity spread? Well the apostles and others ran around telling people.

This is where it gets interesting. For many thousands of years humans have lived in all corners of the earth. This goes for when Jesus lived all the way up until now as well. Since then, Billions of people have been born, lived, and died while never hearing the name Jesus. They never heard anything about the bible or christianity. Same goes for many religions. The Mayans worshipped the sun I think and many other cultures worshipped different things.

So, Billions and billions of people are doomed to suffer in hell for all eternity while never even having the option to convert.

Even today there are remote regions where small groups of humans live away from any technology. They've never even seen a white man, let alone heard anything about Islam or Christianity.

Even if you try to argue that ignorance is a free ticket into heaven, then everything contradicts itself since it would be better to not spread the word of god and just let people get their free ride into heaven instead of risking a trip to hell. But in any case, ignorance isn't excused.



5. The Christian God is not love.

Try reading the Old Testement sometime. What you will find is that time and time again, God either kills or condones the killing of tons of people. Men, women, children...everyone. The Israelites wiped out entire cities and cultures because they didn't worship the right god or wanted the land.

According to the bible, God wiped out everyone with a flood on top of all the other murder. Don't think there were any pregnant women or kids on the planet? There most certainly was. Kids may be innocent, but I don't think that means it's ok to go around killing them.

If it's OK for god to wipe out kids, shouldn't it be ok for christians to go around killing little kids, too?

Remember, God is perfect. Without flaw. This means his actions and what he told his people to do is right. It's not wrong. It's not a sin. Christians could follow the example of god and just kill anyone that doesn't worship their god. If it isn't the christian god, then it's the wrong god anyway, right?

The Old Testement shows what kind of horrible diety this god is. It's disgusting. The stuff in there is worse than any movie Hollywood can produce. It's one reason why I find it so amusing that christians object and protest movies, games, etc... When their own book is far more disgusting and violent than anything the USA has produced.



6. The game changed at halftime.

God is supposedly perfect. If this is the case, you have to wonder why Jesus was ever needed? Wouldn't a perfect being had made perfect rules from the beginning instead of having to change everything? Remember, it was Eye for an Eye then Jesus came along and said things like, "If a man strikes you on the cheek, turn your face so he can strike the other side. If a man steals your coat, give him your shirt also."

Very different teachings there.

If this diety was perfect and without reproach, then you must wonder why he gave us a broken system to begin with and only 2,000 years ago did he change everything to something better.

Doesn't exactly instill a lot of confidence in a god that supposedly made you and created hell so people who didn't follow the rules suffer for all eternity. You'd think with him making mistakes like that, that he would cut people slack.




7. Either god knew or he didn't.

God is perfect. God knows everything and is everywhere at once. So you must wonder, did he know beforehand that his human creations would sin and break his rules?

Afterall, Hell was created by him. So, not only did he create man and the rules mankind is suppose to live by, but he also created a place to send their souls to suffer for all eternity should they not live right.

Did he know this or not when he created us? It's a simple thing. Either he did or didn't know.

A. If he did know, then this shows him to be a cruel diety. He created beings that he knew would spend eternity suffering in hell. This is anything but love.

B. If he didn't know, then he has no business making us in the first place, much less hell. This is irrisponsible, careless, and reckless.

Let me put it this way. If you were going to have a child with the love of your life, would you have it anyway if you knew it's future for 100% sure? What if you knew, beyond a doubt, that when it was age 2 that a dog would maul and mangle it. The child would spend weeks in the hospital suffering in pain before finally dying in agony.

You know you can't stop it. You can't avoid it. It's going to happen. Would you have the child anyway? Knowing that such a thing will happen and you cannot stop it? Supposedly god gave us free will, so he can't stop us from sinning.





There are just too many things wrong with religion, especially the christian one. There are some good things to be had by it. Jesus did have some good messages for us. It's just not what it claims itself to be. Simple as that. It's flawed.

Men use these things to control people and gain power. Our politicians do it now and even the so-called christians on cable stations like TBN who are rich from exploiting the religion.

Like many smart people have said before and probably after my life, we would be better off without religion. Spirituality? Well, that's different. Nothing wrong with being in touch with everything that makes you a person. There is more than just the physical and what you can see with your two eyes.

I honestly don't think humans will advance to the level of how we might consider aliens until we put this religion stuff behind us.

[Zinke]

Damn, there is way too much to read in this thread. So, if something like this has been posted, I apologize.

I have had similar doubt as you Shogon, to the point that I became agnostic and then atheist. I was just fed up with the illogical nature of religion and 'God'. That was until I discovered a certain scientific theory, called the Omega Point theory.

The idea is that the entire universe is evolving. We're evolving towards a perfect being, aka God.

All of the things in the universe are, in essence, processing information. We're researching and learning about our own world.

Just over our lifespan, we've done amazing things. If you used some of our technology on a cave man, he'd think we ARE gods. If you continue that trend, and continue our advancement over millions and billions of years, eventually we (or whatever replaces us) will have complete control and knowledge over all matter.

Unfortunately, this most likely won't happen until the very last moments of our universe's lifespan. I'm going to give a VERY simple version to save
time.

Some scientists believe the universe will reach a certain point where it will begin collapsing back. As it does this, it has to condense itself, and the information inherent in the matter of the universe. At some point just before it will be completely collapsed, the information processing will reach an infinite state. It will be all powerful and all knowing, and then recreate itself. Because it's all knowing, it will already know all possible outcomes of the offspring universe.
I'm bastardizing it, as alot of it deals with high math and advanced scientific theories that I don't know. That's how it was explained to me by someone far more intelligent then I. But, here's a link if your into that stuff
http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Global/Omega/

Ok, so wtf does that mean.

It means that the universe is God. But, not the way the bible talks about him. At the moment of the universe's creation, God knew all possible paths that would happen. It does not mean He chose one specific path for our universe to follow, it means that he knew all of the possible outcomes that could ever happen (alternate time lines if you will). Human beings have 'free will' as the bible states, but it's only from our own perspective. If you choose to kill someone or not kill someone, it will have different consequences for YOU, but from God's standpoint it doesn't. He can see both choices and the resulting consequences, at all times, because he saw them before you ever made them.

Praying won't get God to change things for you. But, it may put something in the back of your mind, that makes you try to bring about that change on your own, subconsciously.

Basically, I believe in 'God', meaning an entity of some sort that is beyond our comprehension. I do not believe the story of the bible, or organized religion. I believe in being a good person because those things have consequences of their own, not because God is keeping a scorecard of your deeds, that results in going to Heaven or Hell. "Sorry, you missed Heaven by one point. Better luck next time.. oh.. wait.. your in their for eternity. Tough luck. Next!'

[Kolle]

There's a lot more evidence for things like a "universal mind" than god. But I guess you could consider them the same thing.

This is where people like remote viewers get their information. It's how before disasters you might get thousands or millions of people having similar dreams. Kinda like with the experiment their doing at...er some college I can't remember which where they have these machines set up in different areas. They constantly spout out random number sequences. When something major happens, before and after, these machines spit out more and more similar patterns. The theory is people are all connected through something we don't understand yet and it effects us all.

There's much more evidence for things like that, and even reincarnation, that it's a lot easier to consider as being real. I'm more inclined to believe that aliens created mankind by manipulating what was already living here than any version of religion.

[Fammaden]

That's a pretty groovy theory, Kirrog.

And Kolle, what the hell is up between you and the aliens? What do aliens have to do with it?

EDIT: Ok, I thought maybe it was similar to the kind of thing Kirrog was talking about, but really, why so big on aliens? Have you met one?