Science and Drugs forum

[jcdent0n]

hair tests are rarely used.

with your usage i'd say 2-3 weeks to be clean assuming your pretty active. The more exercise you do that fast it leaves your system.

I've done 1 week 5 days before. Took a multi vitamin each day for the 2 days leading up to the test and the morning of it. Took 2 advil the morning of it. Over the night before, and first in the morning drank about 2 liters of liquid (water, and cranberry juice)

Only other big trick is fill mid stream not the start or finish, and make sure its not your first piss of the day.

<--Note: Disregard name this is Brekk on friend's computer.

[Eomer]

Thanks both, that's about what I figured. I was gonna come back and ask about exercise/weight/fat loss etc as well. Reason for that is I've been fairly sedentary the past month after 4-5 months of being very active skiing. However this weekend I finally went for a run (still fucking cold enough to get a wicked ear ache, but that's another thread), picked up a demo mountain bike and took it for a spin, etc etc. I plan from here on in getting myself in to much better shape than I have been for years, basically.

But I wasn't sure if that's necessarily a good thing or a bad thing in relation to the testing. I'd assume that as you burn off fat you'd be expelling THC that was stored in it, and I wasn't sure if that was necessarily a good thing or a bad thing in relation to the test (if I should go really hard on the exercise for two weeks, then ease off for the week prior to testing or something).

In the end it's not that big of a deal (around a thousand bucks a year on the premium), but it would be embarassing to fail it. Basically I'd have my dad and bro giving me shit cause my premium was in between my dad and bro's, despite them being 31 and 6 years older, respectively. And the salesman is kind of a smartass too.

It will definitely be urine and not blood or hair, I know that much.

[brekk]

Originally Posted by Eomer

I'd assume that as you burn off fat you'd be expelling THC that was stored in it, and I wasn't sure if that was necessarily a good thing or a bad thing in relation to the test (if I should go really hard on the exercise for two weeks, then ease off for the week prior to testing or something).

Yeah exactly. Exercise pulls THC out of fat faster, so when you get really close to the test dont do much exercise at all. I've actually heard some people theorize eating slightly more fatty food just to assure a minimal amount of fat with THC in it gets burned.

[Salshun]

Originally Posted by Eomer

Thanks both, that's about what I figured. I was gonna come back and ask about exercise/weight/fat loss etc as well. Reason for that is I've been fairly sedentary the past month after 4-5 months of being very active skiing. However this weekend I finally went for a run (still fucking cold enough to get a wicked ear ache, but that's another thread), picked up a demo mountain bike and took it for a spin, etc etc. I plan from here on in getting myself in to much better shape than I have been for years, basically.

But I wasn't sure if that's necessarily a good thing or a bad thing in relation to the testing. I'd assume that as you burn off fat you'd be expelling THC that was stored in it, and I wasn't sure if that was necessarily a good thing or a bad thing in relation to the test (if I should go really hard on the exercise for two weeks, then ease off for the week prior to testing or something).

In the end it's not that big of a deal (around a thousand bucks a year on the premium), but it would be embarassing to fail it. Basically I'd have my dad and bro giving me shit cause my premium was in between my dad and bro's, despite them being 31 and 6 years older, respectively. And the salesman is kind of a smartass too.

It will definitely be urine and not blood or hair, I know that much.

Yeah, just drink the 8 glasses of water a day after your last smoke everyday up until the day of the test, exercise daily, and for GOD'S SAKE don't take those urine cleaning products. I've heard of newer tests that can test for those. Now, they can only screw you if they detect drugs, not the cleaning products, but they CAN retest you if they detect them. Also, also all tests require double review. If a newb tester sees something funny, they kick it to the leet tester.

[Schatze]

The main concern for a test is the diffusion of THC out of depot storage in the various fatty areas of the body. Eating fatty food will have no effect. Exercise won't really have much effect either. 3 weeks to a month abstaining. I'd err on the side of caution and go for a month and a half if you were a heavy user, or have a lot of body fat. After that period of time the diffusion rate should be undetectable.

If you're worried about a hair sample, shave your head well ahead of time after you start abstaining. It's what Britney Spears did, and it can work for you, too!

I'm pretty sure other than using clean urine that most of the folklore surrounding getting out of tests is BS. But then again, they didn't teach me how to circumvent drug tests, and there's very little drug testing done up here unless you commit a crime so there's no reason for me to have looked into it.

Give erowid a try. There are a lot of people who post there who are damned knowledgeable about pharmacokinetics and pharmacology. Just avoid the bunk stuff.

[Schatze]

Some guy gave a bunch of wrong answers earlier so I'll answer this;

Originally Posted by Millie

I dunno. It's entirely possible something could be wrong with me. On a semi-related note, I should mention that I am 100% immune to the effects of Valium (learned this the hard way in a recent surgery), and coke does nothing for me at all. Also, the one and only time I tried ecstasy (back in college) I felt basically no effects. Time slowed down a tiny bit, but that was all.

Weed tends to make me very giggly and (I hear) annoying, so that seems to fall within the normal range of experience. But other than that, my experiments with drugs have led to disappointment.

Valium affects GABAa receptors, I forget what the binding affinities for valium are but it will act as an indirect agonist of varying strength for the 1-5 subtypes in the GABAa class of NT. Question; do you have abnormal reactions to alcohol? Do you drink a lot, ingest a lot of drugs, etc? The reason is that alcohol is cross tolerant with BZDs due to its affects on the GABAa+GABAb receptor types (as well as blocking NMDA glutamate receptors). As well, the metabolic pathway, microsomal cytochrome p450 becomes more active. Cytochrome P450 is pretty much the main route of bioelimination, although I'm pretty sure valium has several active metabolites.

Coke affects all the monoamines, but with knockout mice it's the DAT mice that will stop self-administering or stop place preference, etc., so the feelings of reward or pleasure are dopaminergic based. The VTA feeds into the nucleus accumbens causing feelings of euphoria, pleasure, etc.

Extasy is more complicated, but one of the key parts is the 5-HT1a receptor. This in theory causes the release of oxytocin, which is the hormone associated with orgasm and childbirth (bonding, empathy). It not only blocks the SERT, but reverses the action pumping more and more into the cleft; that's the reason why it and meth are literally murder on your serotogenic pathways. But there's probably some 5-HT2 action (synaesthesia and sometimes hallucinations) and DA action for pleasure of course, although I'm not sure about the affects on the dopaminergic system.

What's the point? None of these drugs use the same NT or NT subtypes to cause an affect so it's not an abnormality in a particular system. Whatever wonky instant-homeostatic mechanism you have going on in your brain, it does make sense that weed would still work. Cannibinoids are retrograde (2nd messenger? Forget), in that they cause an upstream neuron to start inhibiting the downstream neuron by increasing the release of GABA or reducing the release of an excitatory neurotransmitter. So it causes you to lose inhibition much like alcohol does, although in an entirely different manner, but doesn't cause the NMDA glutamate blockade and doesn't affect motor activities, although it does cause peripheral neglect of visual stimuli and working memory impairment. Anandamide (endogenous cannabinoid) and THC are indirect in their action, which is maybe why they work for you? shrug

Millie, can I have your brain? It'd be interesting to study your weird brain. I've known people who have bad reactions, I've known people who've had almost no reactions to singular drugs or families of drugs, but never someone who is resistant to pretty much every major psychotropic mechanism. But then again, there is precedence of similar things which i'm not going into. Maybe try some hallucinogens to see if your 5-HT2 system responds properly to psychotropic drugs.

edit: NM, you did Salvia, so there's 5-HT2 and possible D3 or D4 as well. Really, can I have your brain? You'll die, but you'll advance science.

[Salshun]

Originally Posted by Schatze

Some guy gave a bunch of wrong answers earlier so I'll answer this;



Valium affects GABAa receptors, I forget what the binding affinities for valium are but it will act as an indirect agonist of varying strength for the 1-5 subtypes in the GABAa class of NT. Question; do you have abnormal reactions to alcohol? Do you drink a lot, ingest a lot of drugs, etc? The reason is that alcohol is cross tolerant with BZDs due to its affects on the GABAa+GABAb receptor types (as well as blocking NMDA glutamate receptors). As well, the metabolic pathway, microsomal cytochrome p450 becomes more active. [ytochrome P450 is pretty much the main route of bioelimination, although I'm pretty sure valium has several active metabolites.

I can't stand Valium (or Soma, Xanax, the other sleepy time depressants). I will NEVER understand sedatives used as recreational drugs.

Coke affects all the monoamines, but with knockout mice it's the DAT mice that will stop self-administering or stop place preference, etc., so the feelings of reward or pleasure are dopaminergic based. The VTA feeds into the nucleus accumbens causing feelings of euphoria, pleasure, etc.

Just got an 8 ball of what my friends call "the best coke on Earth." Oh, one really cool thing I recently learned. Some people swear up and down that the mouth/nose/tongue numbing effects of coke are a great sign that it's good shit. Great cocaine does NOT have this side effect. The things is gets cut with you. Just a little piece of fact worth knowing.

Extasy is more complicated, but one of the key parts is the 5-HT1a receptor. This in theory causes the release of oxytocin, which is the hormone associated with orgasm and childbirth (bonding, empathy). It not only blocks the SERT, but reverses the action pumping more and more into the cleft; that's the reason why it and meth are literally murder on your serotogenic pathways. But there's probably some 5-HT2 action (synaesthesia and sometimes hallucinations) and DA action for pleasure of course, although I'm not sure about the affects on the dopaminergic system.

The best way I've ever explained how X works is as follows. Imagine a bathtub. That's your brain, and seratonin is the water. Normally the tubs plug isn't being used, so any water/seratonin put into the tub swishes around a bit then goes down the drain, maintaining a normal level of the pleasure rewarding seratonin. Now the way X works is that it's a water draining plug (The SSRI effect). What X does is plug the drain. So that when your body keeps dribbling out seratonin, but it doesn't go anywhere (re-uptake inhibitor). It builds up to high levels because it has no where to go, producing the euphoria effects. What do you think of this explanation, Schatze?

edit: NM, you did Salvia, so there's 5-HT2 and possible D3 or D4 as well. Really, can I have your brain? You'll die, but you'll advance science.

Have you tried Silvia, Schatze? I've heard mainly bad things, so I'm hesitant.

I did 2C-B again the other night, and it was easily the most intense dose I've ever had. A good 5 hour peak. I have a buddy willing to part with some AMT but I don't know how I feel about a 24 hour trip. Seems pretty intense, maybe too much so. I hate him right now because he has some GREAT molly that I got one time that's he's being cheap with. The stuff really ruined street bought X for me. He's the guy that also had pharmaceutical grade coke once that he let me try. It's only used medically for ONE reason anymore; a type of eye surgery. It had a very strong mental stimulant factor to it while the physical wasn't as strong as usual. It was a mind opening lighting ride fuck and I'm sorry he's out of it. It was a CNS from heaven without a doubt.

[Schatze]

Originally Posted by Salshun

I can't stand Valium (or Soma, Xanax, the other sleepy time depressants). I will NEVER understand sedatives used as recreational drugs.

Depends. Overstimulated individuals will probably get a much better high from BZDs, with less sleepiness. If you're one of those individuals who are constantly fidgeting, short attention span, life of the party types, that's probably because you're understimulated, neurologically. It's more complicated than that, and drugs affect people in different ways. Xanax I used to get heavy disassociative effects which were pleasant and euphoric. Now I get relaxed, depending upon my mood state, I become more awake and alive, and depending on doses, I get the amnesic effect. Though BZDs while a class of drugs, have vastly different effects based upon their binding affinities to the various GABAa receptors. Lorazepam for instance tends to be more sedating as well as an amnesic, than say, alprozolam (xanax).

As to the coke, it's a potent local anaesthetic. Good coke will make your mucus membranes go numb. However, people cut it with teething powder to replicate the same effect with heavily cut product.

The best way I've ever explained how X works is as follows. Imagine a bathtub. That's your brain, and seratonin is the water. Normally the tubs plug isn't being used, so any water/seratonin put into the tub swishes around a bit then goes down the drain, maintaining a normal level of the pleasure rewarding seratonin. Now the way X works is that it's a water draining plug (The SSRI effect). What X does is plug the drain. So that when your body keeps dribbling out seratonin, but it doesn't go anywhere (re-uptake inhibitor). It builds up to high levels because it has no where to go, producing the euphoria effects. What do you think of this explanation, Schatze?

Sort of right, but a bit more complicated. Like meth, X has dual action on the presynaptic side. It not only blocks the SERT (the drain), but actually reverses the action of the SERT, causing "water" to spout from the drain instead. It basically overloads the synaptic clefts. The synaesthesic elements may be from 5-HT2 or may be from D3 or D4 activation, I'm not sure.

Have you tried Silvia, Schatze? I've heard mainly bad things, so I'm hesitant.

Nope, I have my vices, but most of my knowledge comes from university pharmacology and pharmacokinetics classes. Honestly, with how short duration the drug works, and the motor retardation involved, the risks are no greater than many other drugs, and much less than some. There is always the risk of a psychotic break, but that's pretty damned rare and the etiology of drug induced psychotic breaks seems to be in line with the stress-diathesis model, in that individuals who have psychotic breaks from drugs were already at heightened risk of such breaks due to biological factors. The consumption of the drug just tends to trigger it. Other than that, like other hallucinogens, it's not addictive, it doesn't have the risk factors that stimulants have. The worst thing you can probably expect is a bad high.

For the fellow pharmacology/pharmacokinetics people, it's 5-HT2 that is implicated in the action of most hallucinogens, right?

I did 2C-B again the other night, and it was easily the most intense dose I've ever had. A good 5 hour peak. I have a buddy willing to part with some AMT but I don't know how I feel about a 24 hour trip. Seems pretty intense, maybe too much so. I hate him right now because he has some GREAT molly that I got one time that's he's being cheap with. The stuff really ruined street bought X for me. He's the guy that also had pharmaceutical grade coke once that he let me try. It's only used medically for ONE reason anymore; a type of eye surgery. It had a very strong mental stimulant factor to it while the physical wasn't as strong as usual. It was a mind opening lighting ride fuck and I'm sorry he's out of it. It was a CNS from heaven without a doubt.

2-C family isn't something I've covered much, but from doing a perusal of information it seems like it has very similar effects as x and is an entactogenic as well. I'd be interested to see the pharmacology because x really does a permanent number on the serotonin pathways on your brain with chronic use. It's the dual action effect that x and meth share that are the major problem. I'm interested because when I used to roll, I'd get extreme depression afterwards for a day or two. Then one time I did a 24 hour little party with some friends. The rebound depression was the most horrible thing I've experienced and that pretty much ended my rolling days.

But e (x, we called it e, local variation) was the most amazing stuff ever. If I could find something else that wasn't such an absolute nightmare neurologically I'd pick it up again for recreational use.

For myself, I prefer depressant class drugs. They seem to have paradoxical effects on myself. Stimulants, it's just like, I have too much going on in my head at baseline, I tend to become quiet and withdrawn due to the fact that I basically go into mental speed free association mode with stimulants. It's just too much. One exception is lots of caffeine when I get up to go to the gym, but caffeine isn't even in the same ballpark as illicit stimulants.

[Asmadai]

Salvia is harmless, but everyone needs to do it once.

I've not felt a high that I could compare it to really, but then again i've never smoked crack.

[Eomer]

Originally Posted by Schatze

The main concern for a test is the diffusion of THC out of depot storage in the various fatty areas of the body. Eating fatty food will have no effect. Exercise won't really have much effect either. 3 weeks to a month abstaining. I'd err on the side of caution and go for a month and a half if you were a heavy user, or have a lot of body fat. After that period of time the diffusion rate should be undetectable.

If you're worried about a hair sample, shave your head well ahead of time after you start abstaining. It's what Britney Spears did, and it can work for you, too!

I'm pretty sure other than using clean urine that most of the folklore surrounding getting out of tests is BS. But then again, they didn't teach me how to circumvent drug tests, and there's very little drug testing done up here unless you commit a crime so there's no reason for me to have looked into it.

Give erowid a try. There are a lot of people who post there who are damned knowledgeable about pharmacokinetics and pharmacology. Just avoid the bunk stuff.

I don't have a lot of body fat, and while I smoked fairly often it wasn't anything close to "heavy" use. The actual amount of pot I smoked was quite small. The nurse called to book an appointment last night, and conveniently I'm in the middle of hockey playoffs for the next couple weeks, and I don't know when I have games, so I put her off till the end of May, and she's on vacation then, so not until the first week of June. It'll be about a month exactly of abstaining, so I'm not too worried about it. I just have to resist the goddamn temptation, a lot of friends smoke pretty often.

Thankfully I shave my head to 1/16" weekly, so they'll have a tough time getting a good hair sample from my head. However I'm sure they would probably just yoink one from my arm or chest or something. But thankfully I know for a fact it will be urine.

I'm Canuckian, and no I didn't commit a crime. As I said originally, the insurance underwriter wants me to take the test to confirm I haven't smoked recently, as I was stupid enough to admit having smoked pot last year when I originally got a life insurance policy and they hit me with a premium 50% higher than it should be (smoker rate). I can't really complain, it's their perogative, but I'd like to save the grand or so a year that it's worth.

And I'll probably have to go through this same bullshit if we want to raise our coverage next year.

[Schatze]

Ah ok, sort of read the thread in a scattershot method.

Just abstain as long as you can before the test and hope for the best. I doubt they're using top of the line expensive tests so if you can give it 3-4 weeks of abstaining you should be fine.

[Millie]

Originally Posted by Schatze

Question; do you have abnormal reactions to alcohol? Do you drink a lot, ingest a lot of drugs, etc?

I would say my reactions to alcohol (i.e., getting drunk and silly) fall within the normal range of experience. I don't really drink all that much. At least not as much as I did back in college. I'd say I'm probably on the high end of average for a girl in her mid to late 20s. That is to say, I'm probably above the mean and below the third quartile (thanks, statistics class!).

Millie, can I have your brain? It'd be interesting to study your weird brain. I've known people who have bad reactions, I've known people who've had almost no reactions to singular drugs or families of drugs, but never someone who is resistant to pretty much every major psychotropic mechanism.

But I'm currently using my brain! You can have it when I'm dead, ok? Which, considering my newfound Vulcan physiology, might be in several hundred years.

Maybe try some hallucinogens to see if your 5-HT2 system responds properly to psychotropic drugs.

edit: NM, you did Salvia, so there's 5-HT2 and possible D3 or D4 as well. Really, can I have your brain? You'll die, but you'll advance science.

I've done mushrooms before, and they had mild hallucinogenic effects. This was way back in 9th grade, and I don't remember the details of the trip all that well. Basically, a friend and I did a very small amount of shrooms and then spent the next 12 hours awake and trippy in her parents' house. Probably not the best idea in the world, but what are you gonna do, right? At any rate, all I really remember was seeing very minor shape distortions and a general feeling of anxiety, with a loss of my sense of time. This seems pretty normal, from what I understand. Though the trip was mild, I think it had more to do with the amount of shrooms I ate (very small quantity) than with my brain, per se.

[Adam12]

I think your mushroom experience was normal. I never had any visual hallucinations after eating them (I do vaguely remember a Tom Petty concert seeming very bright, but that's about it). LSD in relatively high dosages is a different experience entirely though.

Edit: Nope, I lied. The first time I tried shrooms I ended up at the bathroom mirror for hours. It sucks when you realize how asymmetrical your face is

[Millie]

I'm extremely nervous about trying LSD, mainly because of all the horror stories I've heard about how it can draw out latent psychological problems. There is a mild history of bipolar disorder on the maternal side of my family, and while no one in my generation has shown any symptoms yet, I don't want to push anything over the edge.

[Adam12]

I've been away from all of this for years, but the last I heard is that LSD is pretty much non existent or extremely hard to get these days.

I personally never had anything but a great time on it, and I have enough crap going on in my brain to keep a team of psych's (or a single OT VIII) busy for years. It just made me really happy mostly~