I know this is SHOCKING INFO but...

[earthfell]

Originally Posted by Camerous

I'll agree with that whole heartedly. That right there is the best post I have read in a long time.

+Internets to you sir.

aren't you a silver spooned brat riding the coattails of daddy's wealth? of course you'd agree with that.

[Heylel Teomim]

Originally Posted by CnCGOD

I love how believing in personal responsibility in fiscal situations makes you retarded now, the delusions of the left are just... epic. If you buy a house and can't make the payments that is bad. If you buy a house, cant make the payments, the government helps you by forcing banks to renegotiate with you, THEN YOU STILL FUCKING MISS PAYMENTS... that is epic.

It's not that simple. People begin missing payments because the payments are *rising*. Many of them were sold ARMs without fully understanding what they were. Yes, there's a bit of personal culpability there. There's also an equally large amount of blame to be placed on the sales agents who sold homes knowing that their customers were not fully aware of what they were signing.

Many people really did have affordable payments when things were good. However, as values and interest rates adjusted, suddenly their payments shot up and priced them out of the home they currently lived in.

You simply cannot boil this down to "people were dumb and overbought". They bought precisely what the prevailing market trends suggested they *should* buy, just like the banks. Everyone assumed housing value would go up and they'd make money in the end, but they didn't. It's everyone's fault, and it's not a left/right issue at all.

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

You simply cannot boil this down to "people were dumb and overbought". They bought precisely what the prevailing market trends suggested they *should* buy, just like the banks. Everyone assumed housing value would go up and they'd make money in the end, but they didn't. It's everyone's fault, and it's not a left/right issue at all.

I dunno. I don't own a house, we've been looking into buying one for about 2 years now, but prices just kept going up and every day we could afford less and less of a house. Now prices won't come back down because everyone owes so fucking much on their house that they can't sell for what they're actually worth.

Just looking at the whole principle of an ARM turned me off. Who the fuck would ever think that's a good idea? If you have an ounce of fucking sense, you'd never do something like that. It's an "ADJUSTABLE RATE Mortgage." The only question you need to ask is "Uhhh, how adjustable?" and when you hear the answer you go "uhh, fuck no." and this whole crisis is avoided.

[Heylel Teomim]

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

Just looking at the whole principle of an ARM turned me off. Who the fuck would ever think that's a good idea? If you have an ounce of fucking sense, you'd never do something like that. It's an "ADJUSTABLE RATE Mortgage." The only question you need to ask is "Uhhh, how adjustable?" and when you hear the answer you go "uhh, fuck no." and this whole crisis is avoided.

I totally agree, on the face of it they sound like a horrible idea. However, I can only assume that you're a relatively educated person, as am I. That's not exactly the norm, especially for older folks who are looking into buying for the first time.

Common sense has never been common, and blaming people for not understanding what a term means when it's totally alien to them, and no one is bothering to offer an explanation, doesn't get us anywhere.

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Heylel Teomim

I totally agree, on the face of it they sound like a horrible idea. However, I can only assume that you're a relatively educated person, as am I. That's not exactly the norm, especially for older folks who are looking into buying for the first time.

Common sense has never been common, and blaming people for not understanding what a term means when it's totally alien to them, and no one is bothering to offer an explanation, doesn't get us anywhere.

I think it's about time we stopped apologizing for the fucking stupid people in this world. They're really starting to become a burden on the human race.

It used to be that if you were too stupid to stockpile food for the winter, you died. We should probably get back to that. Social welfare is fine and dandy, but if the rampant stupidity of millions of americans leads to an economic crisis of this proportion, then we should maybe consider doling out some punishment in the form of "Tough shit, get outta your house, dumbass. Maybe next time you'll read and ask questions, and tell your kids to do the same so we don't face this problem again in 30 years."

[Eomer]

^That would be the conservative, or "right wing" approach I guess. While that's all fine and dandy, I think the better approach is to properly regulate the mortgage/lending industry so that people can't get themselves in to such fucked up situations in the first place. For the billionth time, Canada's real estate market doesn't have nearly the problems the US does, because ARM mortgages are pretty much illegal in all but limited circumstances. They briefly allowed 40 year amortizations but repealed that in the fall (30, or maybe 35 years is the absolute maximum allowed in a typical insured mortgage, and you can't get an uninsured mortgage unless you've got 25% or more down in which case you're probably not a fuck up). You cannot get an interest only mortgage in Canada, and how much you can be leant is based strictly on your verified income. Subsequently, we don't have a housing market that has cratered to anywhere near the extent it has in the US. Yes things are down 5-15% depending on the area due to the economic situation and the bubble that formed towards the end of 2007 (or in some cases up significantly), but it's not fucking armageddon with double digit foreclosure/delinquency percentages like in the US.

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Eomer

^That would be the conservative, or "right wing" approach I guess.

Which is kinda weird, because I don't think anyone's ever described my thinking as right wing, like, ever.

I just think people need to take responsibility for their bullshit. Yes, people made loans they shouldn't have made. You should probably make sure that the guy has a job and makes money before you give him a loan. But people also TOOK loans that shouldn't have been made too. You can't completely blame banks for this when it takes 2 to tango.

However, I do think this has all lead to possibly the coolest term ever. Was listening to some dude on the radio this morning talking about "Ninja loans" -- No income, no job/assets. That's hilarious.

[Eomer]

I'm not blaming banks solely. I'm not solely blaming home owners or people taking loans. I'm not solely blaming the government or lack of regulation. I'm saying that there's a whole slew of blame to go around, and no one party is solely to blame for what's happened. People took out loans and bought houses that they damn well should have known they couldn't afford. Banks were lending to people with no credentials or proof of income. And government was rubbing one out to home ownership statistics while ignoring a lot of warning signs. Everyone appeared to be asleep at the wheel.

Government and regulation certainly aren't the solution to every problem, and sometimes ARE the problem. But in this case, government and regulation were needed to keep some sanity in the marketplace, and they were on vacation.

[AladainAF]

Subsequently, we don't have a housing market that has cratered to anywhere near the extent it has in the US.

Apparently, you also don't have financially inept baboons like Barney Frank in government advocating "Affordable Housing".

[Eomer]

No, we've got way worse: New Democratic Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thankfully they've never managed to actually get any real power federally. They've done several fantastic jobs fucking up BC, Ontario and Saskatchewan though. Much love to Tommy Douglas, though.

[Strifen]

Originally Posted by TheCutlery

I think it's about time we stopped apologizing for the fucking stupid people in this world. They're really starting to become a burden on the human race.

It used to be that if you were too stupid to stockpile food for the winter, you died. We should probably get back to that. Social welfare is fine and dandy, but if the rampant stupidity of millions of americans leads to an economic crisis of this proportion, then we should maybe consider doling out some punishment in the form of "Tough shit, get outta your house, dumbass. Maybe next time you'll read and ask questions, and tell your kids to do the same so we don't face this problem again in 30 years."

You're included in that stupidity fyi, look in the mirror if you wanna see who is responsible for this economic crisis. I know, you'll probably lash out at this, but everyone wants to blame everyone but themselves.

We are not in the beginning stages of an economic collapse due to people taking out loans they couldn't pay back. This is 100% just an effect of the cause. If those stupid people didn't take out all these loans the whole shebang would have came down years ago.

[TheCutlery]

Originally Posted by Strifen

You're included in that stupidity fyi, look in the mirror if you wanna see who is responsible for this economic crisis. I know, you'll probably lash out at this, but everyone wants to blame everyone but themselves.

We are not in the beginning stages of an economic collapse due to people taking out loans they couldn't pay back. This is 100% just an effect of the cause. If those stupid people didn't take out all these loans the whole shebang would have came down years ago.

Right, so me living within my means and not taking out a 300k mortgage while my wife wasn't working and my daughter was young makes me responsible for the economic crisis. Got it.

You wanna explain further, or just look like a tool?

[AladainAF]

I know, you'll probably lash out at this, but everyone wants to blame everyone but themselves.

I don't see how I could be responsible for the financial crisis at all. I have little to no debt outside of my mortgage which is about 20% of my monthly income, two paid off cars, no credit card debt, and never a late payment in my life.

If thats a contributing factor to the economic crisis, then we're fucked.

[GrobbeeTrull2.0]

You're responsible because you didn't do more to help educate those in your life. Your "live and let fuck up" mentality is just as much at fault.

[CnCGOD]

I find it hard to say ignorance is an excuse for lack of responsibility. I was 100% ignorant of the process when I bought my home last year and spent time doing research to make sure I didn't screw up. Why is this too much to ask of anyone else? The information is out there, its not that complex... there are tons of tools to calculate payments etc.