[Utnayan]

Originally Posted by Ngruk

Being your opinion it's not for me to judge it as right or wrong, but we can agree to disagree.

Well, after reading what you said we agreed from what I could tell. You agreed with me that McQuaid and the like were responsible for bringing the genre to the marketplace, proving it could be profitable, and helping it get into mainstream. We also agreed that the live patching process is easily abused (And was/is) today.

If you want my opinion (not sure you are asking but I am offering), Brad makes games he thinks are cool and kick ass. I don't have a problem with that. The fact that he's been there and done that, start to finish, is pretty stinking unreal to me as I sit here at the bottom of that impossibly long staircase, and start to make my climb.

I agree, I do not have a problem with that either. I may disagree with his design decisions, like Unibody for Vanguard which is the worst idea yet, and I disagree with how far he hasn't come yet with this much development time -- but my problem is in the delivery, the hype, the PR, and some of the business decisions made which have really brought this genre into the ground just as fast as it put it up. I often wondered just how long it was going to take people to stop looking at this genre as a, "Well, I'll buy this game in 6 months when they finish it after retail release". That's horrible. And as long as that patching process is abused by publishers, it is going to continue.

I think what's gotten designers in trouble (speaking as a customer now) is what they tell us, promise us and show us, and then what they actually deliver us seem to always end up looking and feeling very different.

Basically the Peter Molyneux effect. Hype, hype, and hype. Then the game comes, a lot of features cut but those features cut are not given the same press as the hype they were given years ago, and you end up with a very pissed off fanbase. In the case of Molyneux, I doubt his reputation will ever recover with customers. But this continues way too much in the MMORPG arena.

I also see the MMO space as one where people feel like they HAVE to let you guys in on what they are doing and HAVE to give the game magazines the "scoop" to be considered serious players, and I think that's hurting more than it's helping when all the feedback starts being factored in.

I disagree. I tend to think they want to. If you read magazines you will see screenshot after screenshot with not a lot of merit to the actual discussion of the gameplay, or mechanics. It's been pretty dumbed down to mainstream now in my opinion. You have a lot of hype and not a lot of substance. When you do have the opposite, it's usually someone trying to sell the game on hype (Molyneux) without any expectation of ever coming through on it. Anyone can design a game on paper. When those people can translate it into a playable game, hit those same milestones, and come through for once, that is when they will be an accomplished designer.

It's my belief that the patching setup was intended for use in a very different way when it was introduced, and has seen it's current state evolve from issues and scenarios no one envisioned at the outset. When you are a trendsetter I think you deal with that more often than the people that follow you.

I think it's intended set up was exactly like you say. But unfortunately, as time goes on, we saw it being used via every company as a way to shuttle out piss poor product out the door knowing they could patch it later while banking on the leveling curve. It failed every time. DAOC lacked post 35 itemization and RvR relics. EQ expansions lacked high end zones being completed, resulting in players hard work and effort usually met with a brick wall of no itemization or just flat out broken encounters.(What was worse though was they lied about it) AO was a joke. Star Wars Galaxies used the patching process to actually finish the retail game they already sold - and lied about it as well with many things (Jedi being in game for one, than watching even that patched in 6 months later)

Whatever you do, just don't use the gift of that to finish a game. Yes, an MMORPG is never truly finished - but there is a big difference in using the patching process to add content, fix minor bugs, etc; and using it to completely pass things that should have been done before the game shipped.

And I think you'll see that most people (Including myself) are forgiving as all get out if you slip up and are honest about it. Didn't get it in the game in time? Fine. Let the player base know it will be patched in later. But lie about it, and you are going to see a shitstorm of anti credibility rain down faster than station access pass subs have fallen across the board.

Credibility means everything in this genre. Lose that, and you may as well throw in the towel. It is partly why I feel SOE doesn't do nearly as well. They made improvements in EQ2, but it wasn't enough. They now have to overcome the stigma of the past, and as you can see for yourself - it has fully impacted their bottom line.

In the end, it doesn't matter what the live patching process was intended for, because it's all about what it has become.