[Venjenz]

Originally Posted by Sheaf

Before you spout off nonsense as though you actually know anything, you might want to learn how to spell American Mcgee's name. Or at least mention Tom Hall, one the four founders of id who was a key part of making those games.

Sorry about the spelling of Mcgee's name. I have a friend with the spelling I used, and it was stuck in my brain.

Tom Hall left id over creative differences before Doom was built. He was on the losing side of an argument with Carmack and Romero about the complexity of the game. He wanted complex, they wanted simple. They won, he left.

Originally Posted by Sheaf

Trying to spout off "facts" about level design doesn't change the fact that Romero was a big part of the heart and soul of every single great game id made.

When a company has 10 employees, then they all will be part of the heart and soul. My facts just show that while Romero gets a lot of press because he's a ham, Carmack and Abrash are the brains behind the engine, Adrian Carmack is the guy behind the art, and Romero was about 20% of the level design with 3 other people, and all final decisions at id went through John Carmack.

Originally Posted by Sheaf

The point here is not how many copies of Quake 2, Quake 3, and Doom 3 that id sold. By that point, they were guaranteed to sell a lot even if it was a text adventure just from the franchise name that Romero helped build. The games after Romero was fired by the egotistical, nearly autistic Carmack lacked fun. Period. They had a great engine and good graphics. They just lacked gameplay.

Quake II is a great game. Doom III would have been utterly fantastic if they had gone away from the "fighting in a broom closet" model and actually used some of the wide open spaces that made early id games so fun. In general though, I thought Doom 3 and its expansion were hellah fun.

Originally Posted by Sheaf

Stop jumping on the internet bandwagon of hating on Romero when you know absolutely nothing about what went on at id.

Actually, I have sat and talked with Mike Abrash. Very little of the conversation had to do with Romero, but I did ask what the deal was back in the Quake days, and the story is as it was. He got a lot of press, it inflated his already giant ego, and he clashed with Carmack over too much stuff. He got shown the door. Pretty simple.

And it isn't an internet bandwagon thing. I remember hoping that Dai Katana would be great, and then paid very close attention to the entire development cycle, including all the hirings, firings, and ego clashes at Ion Storm. That's Romero's modus operandi and always has been. Deus Ex was a great game, but isn't it odd that Deus Ex had no involvement from Romero? One of the things that hurt Romero the worst back then was the release of Half Life and Unreal. Unreal took the engine competition up a notch, and Half Life took level design and story flow to a new level. I am not saying that id kept up, because their work post-Hlaf Life hasn't been exactly engrossing, but Ion Storm had nothing close, and Romero knew it.

Originally Posted by Sheaf

Oh, and trying to break down an FPS to just an engine, artwork and level design would is pure idiocy. That's the polish that goes on AFTER the actual gameplay.

And since you seem to come across as some authority on all things id, then you should know how anything gets "finalized" in the Carmack world. Artwork finalization all goes through Adrian Carmack. Everything else goes through John Carmack. It always has. I am not saying Romero added nothing, nor am I saying that his input had no bearing on the success of id. But id is Carmack's world. The success of both guys after their divorce is telling.

Romero has great ideas. I don't deny it. So does American McGee. But running the whole show isn't their bag. Guys like Carmack playing boss to guys like romero is how shit gets done. Romero is not a leader, he's a creative individualist with the delsuion that he can coordinate as well as he thinks up cool levels and gameplay.

Originally Posted by Sheaf

It's easy to look back on Wolfenstein 3-D, Doom, and Quake and say, "Well, those games don't seem all that great." They were absolutely fucking revolutionary.

Every game id made that had Romero on the team was awesome. But understand what was revolutionary in each. Wolfenstein 3D gave us the 1st person perspective in 2.5D. Doom gave the enhanced lighting, walls at any angle, elevations and enhanced 2.5D. Quake was the first truly optimized 3D engine for the FPS. Yeah, the models improved and the looks improved. Why? Because the engine allowed the level design and textures to go where they hadn't gone before. Notice a pattern here? All roads in id success lead back to Carmack.

Nothing against John Romero. I have heard him speak before, and he has good ideas. If he could latch onto a good team and keep his ego from becoming the Mother Brain, great things would happen. But there lies Romero's issue. That ego is his Achilles Heel. It stops him from being part of what he once was, and how great the Doom games and the original Quake are versus how bad Dai Katana sucked rhino balls speaks volumes about Romero as teammate versus coach.