[DelheruRN]

Originally posted by Torrid
First off, rogues don't "sit out" for those fights. They used ranged attacks. Rogue gun/bow damage is the 2nd best among non-hunters.

Yet this is crappy damage compared to what they COULD be doing.

You could replace all your rogues with hunters, take ONE healer out of the raid, and replace that healer with another hunter, and make up ALL of the lost DPS and then some.

At.. um... what? At golemagg hunters, mages and smart rogues take pretty much the same damage (the dangerous part being the fireballs). The only mob where our rogues take significantly more damage than hunters is Gehennas, and that's because rogues can't help concentrating some, which gets them rained on more often.

Rogue damage is also the "riskiest" due to feint being such utter shit. While hunters can blast away with no worries due to FD, I'm waiting until onyxia is 90% hp before engaging, in FR gear.

In phase1 our rogues tend to take it somewhat easy too. This has never stopped them from doing by far the most damage during Onyxia though.

Must be nice to not need resist gear.

Admittedly this is a clear advantage for hunters and mages. However, that just makes it more obvious that no gear they get will ever compare in use to a rogue getting a good resist set and some good weapons. A rogue with 0FR and shitty weapons is nothing. A rogue with high FR

Rogues are SUPPOSED to be the best long term dps. They don't bring anything else to the table. This is at a high healing cost. Yet on top of doing 90% rogue damage at little upkeep, other DPS classes also bring AoE and other utility.

90%? You're kidding, right?

Just because you kill the mob faster with rogues, doesn't mean it wouldn't have been an easier fight without them. Sure, now that MC has long been in farm status, it is easy to say how uber rogue damage is. (all 10% more of it) Hows about you show me your DPS logs when you were still trying to beat the encounters?

Hmm our rogues don't really do anything new. On several mobs our difficulty was actually with the non-rogues (the massive need for dispels at Geddon was a bitch, while rogues were easy and free damage).

It isn't so much about learning the encounters as our rogues improving. Still, the only mobs they didn't do damage on originally were destroyers. They were doing pretty good on Golemagg from attempt #1. They were also always doing rather good on Onyxia as well.

To me it seems obvious that rogues are the best dps class on raids. This is compensated by making sure they're also way more difficult to play on most encounters than hunters and mages. To me this seems reasonable...

The most valid gripe is that you're never forced to optimize to the degree that you'd really feel the lack of rogues. IE an encounter where there is a reason to kill fast. Best would be healers going oom, but that seems impossible to arrange in WoW currently. Majordomo is a good example of an encounter which could be great for this. And it is a nice test of dps if you have something like 12 healers. Problem of course is, it's SO much easier to just have enough heals to simply outlast it. 18 healers and I can not possibly see how you could lose.

My point is: rogues as a class are immensily powerful. There is nothing to be tuned about them. However, the only encounter where the rogue supreme dps is more useful than, say, added heals, is Kazzak. There's just no real sense of urgency anywhere, which means that a defensive posture (favouring alliance guilds with 20 healers per raid) tends to be easier to use during the learning phase.