[Pinchandroll]

disclaimer: long post

I don't know what school you went to or what fraternities you are talking about Wrathcaster, but the impression I am getting is that you are trying to use the exception to prove the rule. Additionally, I think you are exaggerating the way these fraternities recruit. I won't argue that fraternities do tend to attract "fratty" guys, and I also won't argue that frat pernities tend to recruit guys that will help their image, especially with regards to sororities. However, as you admitted in an earlier post, you are overly generalizing and even though you say you are just trying to give an example of your personal experience, it seems like you are trying to apply it to a broader spectrum and that's where I believe you are wrong.

I don't think anyone would argue that the type of fraternity you are describing is pretty lame: dress code requirements for rushees and members, unreasonable dues, general douchebaggery, etc. However, it seems like the people you are arguing with have had the exact opposite experience. In my experience, the majority of fraternities are NOT the way you described - not even close! But I will concede that the ones you describe probably exist.

As for your arguments... your main focus seems to be money. You claim fraternity dues are often unreasonably high. I would argue that since a large chunk of it goes towards insurance, another large chunk goes towards paying for / maintaining a house, and the rest is distributed amongst fairly "big" activities, $1000 / year is not unreasonable at all. In fact, as cheesy as it sounds, going to a formal in Vegas with some of your closest friends for a weekend, or spending a weekend camping in the forest exploring and hanging out in front of a huge bonfire, or going to the mountains and spending a weekend in a snowed in cabin are pretty much priceless experiences that you'll remember and cherish forever. A thousand bucks for stuff like that seems like a drop in the bucket, especially since you'd be spending probably close to that much anyways on trivial stuff like parties and trips throughout the year anyways.

Now if you want to break it down to a purely financial min/max discussion, I'm not claiming fraternity dues are the most efficient thing. Again I'll bring up insurance, because you wouldn't believe how much it costs. Sure, you *could* attend x numbers of parties, y numbers of trips, and consume z liters of alcohol without joining a fraternity and maybe you'll save yourself 50% of the total cost. But there are a lot of things in life where I concede a little extra money for the sake of the experience. Ex. I went to Mexico for a week and got an all-inclusive hotel package. I suppose I could have planned it all out and paid for hotels, food, activites, etc. separately and saved some cash. But the group I went with had all planned on getting the package, and it was quick, planned out for me, and it guaranteed we could do everything together with no worries. I view fraternity costs similarly: yes, technically I could befriend a member of each fraternity and get myself an invite to the parties I wanted, and I could plan my own trip to Vegas and invite my friends along, and I could take my girlfriend out to a nice restaurant and a club with friends instead of going to a formal... but that's not what I'm looking for, because even with all these financially efficient plans, I'm probably missing out on a lot of fun stuff that a fraternity has to offer.

I don't think it's worth discussing your statement that "any social club that excludes someone on a financial basis is shitty." I think that line of thinking is critically flawed but I doubt I'll be able to convince you. Suffice to say, pretty much every organization needs money to stay afloat. If you stop "excluding" people who can't pay, your fraternity probably won't last long because you'll end up with a ton of freeloaders and a bunch of unpaid expenses. Additionally, I don't think $1000 / year is a ridiculous cost at all. A single WoW account will run you what... 200 / year? And most people would agree that monthly WoW payments are barely a blip on the financial radar. You get rid of a couple expensive meals per month and save $20 / month, then you work ONE extra hour per week at like 10 dollars per hour and gain another $30-40 / month. So with minimal sacrifice you can easily make the money; I don't see how the average college student can complain about an additional $1000 / year when lots of that cost comes out of stuff you would have done anyways, and when you are paying tens of thousands for tuition / housing anyways. Of course there are circumstances where a guy is literally working full time and taking a full courseload, and to him I would say that a fraternity might not be the right choice because if you are legitimately THAT swamped and you CANNOT compromise for that extra money, then something's gotta give. Unfortunate, but again, I personally can't think of anyone who is unable to earn another $1000 / year with very little extra effort. I CAN think of many people who don't WANT to, but I don't think that's a legitimate argument against fraternity dues.

Your second point deals with stuff like clothing requirements... First, I agree that that is a stupid idea and I wouldn't even consider joining a fraternity like that. But as I said before, I've never encountered something even close to that, and I've associated with a fair number of Greeks (my own fraternity, of course, and many guys from various other fraternities). Additionally, my friends from other schools that I talk to regularly have plenty of stories about idiots in the Greek systems there, but I rarely (never?) hear about the arbitrary, stuck-up type requirements you are describing. I'm sure there are weird, douchey frats with requirements like these, but I believe they are relatively rare compared to geniunely good ones, so I don't think it's fair to use this argument as leverage against the fraternity system in general.

I'd be interested in hearing what school you're at, and what fraternities specifically are pulling this crap. I just have a feeling that in general, fraternities are the opposite of what you're describing, and you are clearly disdainful towards the whole system in general, and therefore 'our' defense of "They're not all like that and you are overgeneralizing" is pretty legitimate.

Wow, that was quite an essay, but I had plenty of time on my hands tonight. Hopefully this doesn't get ignored because I think it hits a lot of they key points brought up in this thread.